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Azure Jane Lunatic (Azz) 🌺 ([personal profile] azurelunatic) wrote2012-10-26 10:04 am
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Trust inside the Black Box: a rant.

Something on my reading list today reminded me of this thing that is sometimes in my life.

I happen to have trust issues.

I have been asked, more than once, sometimes in these exact words: "What can I do to make you trust me?" This might be a reasonable request to someone who is not me and does not have the same shape of trust issues that I do.

At some point during the last six months, I read a blog post on the way that some people (mostly men) treat attempting to get sex out of a particular woman as a "black box" system that can be gamed: feed enough different inputs into the system, and EVENTUALLY BY THE LAW OF AVERAGES YOU HIT UPON THE MAGIC COMBO, RIGHT?!?! [Edit: "No More Mister Nice Guy", by Froborr at the Slacktiverse, kindly re-found by [personal profile] alexseanchai.]

This is a bad idea. This is not worse than attempting to physically force the outcome (either by direct force, threat of force, drugs, or WHATEVER ELSE THE RAPISTS OF TOMORROW THINK OF), but it is still bad.

Humans are complicated systems. While some mechanical or automated systems don't notice it when the same entity tries and fails to gain access, humans tend to notice these things. Identity is complicated and hard to automatically pin down, but most humans tend to be able to recognize a person who has been making repeated attempts to get in their pants. Most password-protected systems have a timeout to prevent this sort of gaming. Many humans treat that sort of repeated attempt as a threat and shut down all future possibility, even if dude learns incremental backoff.

(Using a varied approach of methods at a rate of three* or fewer per person on a very wide range of potential partners is far less creepy. * Number pulled out of my ass. It may not make people who know you like you better than they did at baseline, but in my book "player" is better than "potential sexual assault".)


Now, trust.

If I actively distrust you, why on earth should I hand you the manual that would make it possible for you to more effectively game my psychological protection suite?

Now, if it happened that someone was doing some specific actions that were contributing to active distrust, like repeated attempts to get in somewhere that they were unwelcome, and they didn't realize that this was causing distrust, it is possible that upon being told "Well, please stop trying to grope me every time we're alone" would cause them to rethink their approach and gain general trustworthiness on that front. But I personally don't always analyze the actions someone else takes that contribute to me not particularly trusting them. It's a lot of quality brain time that I could use on a topic that's more productive or pleasing, and again, why even should I go out of my way to make it easier for someone I distrust to game me?

It's extremely plausible that in more than one case of someone asking me this, the intent was more like "I think you're pretty spiffy. You also seem to know a lot about human interaction. I want to know you better! I want to be friends! I am bad at being friends with humans. Could you help me level up?" Unfortunately, the phrasing "so how do I get you to trust me" pushes the WRONG button inside my black box.
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[personal profile] sraun 2012-10-26 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
For reference - would "I think I have done something that upset you, and I cannot figure out what it was. What was it?" be a question you would be - in general, but not necessarily in specific - willing to answer? Less a 'what can I do to make you trust me' and more an 'I screwed up, would you give me a hint as to how?' - with that latter have at least a sub-text, and possibly an explicit text, that I am interested in trying to fix however I screwed up.
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[personal profile] sraun 2012-10-26 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for the calibration - I hope I never have need of it.
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[personal profile] cleverthylacine 2012-10-26 09:53 pm (UTC)(link)
I have in fact used that one! But you do have to mean it. (I did. And Azz can tell.)
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[personal profile] pauamma 2012-10-26 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
"How can I make you trust me?" pretty much means "I want to manipulate you into trusting me. What should I do?" to me. (And to you as well, unless I badly misread you.)
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[personal profile] geekosaur 2012-10-27 04:15 pm (UTC)(link)
This.
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[personal profile] cleverthylacine 2012-10-26 09:55 pm (UTC)(link)
My response to this question is nearly always some variant of "How fucking stupid are you, anyway?" Although I've also used "Pretty much nothing, now that you've gone and asked me that."

You don't HAVE to be a Slytherin to recognise that as a question that no-one should ever answer--except perhaps with a big fat lie if a superior asks and you can't get out of answering.

This is related to the fact that I'm always jawdropping when people ask for trigger warnings on posts or fic or art by telling complete strangers how and why they were triggered rather than simply saying "this could be triggering, perhaps you should warn people". I mean why the fuck would I ever tell some random stranger (and anyone who happens to drive by and read the comments) exactly how to ruin my day?
Edited (extra tmi for great justice!) 2012-10-26 21:57 (UTC)
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[personal profile] mathsnerd 2012-10-27 07:29 am (UTC)(link)
Exactly! I am primed to lie, lie, lie and RUN LIKE HELL when people start in on this tactic with me.
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[personal profile] chalcopyrite 2012-10-26 10:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Person, if you have to ask....

Maybe I parse exact wording too closely, but I think there's a significant difference between "I am trustworthy," and "I want you to think I am trustworthy," and How can I make you trust me leans heavily towards the latter.

(I now have a mental picture of a cartoon villain drawing themselves up in their secret volcanic lair and declaiming, "I compel you to think I am a nice person!" I guess some people just don't see how that sentence is broken?)
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[personal profile] kaberett 2012-10-26 10:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes - where my gut reaction tends to be that questions like "is there anything I should avoid doing/saying/etc around you?" leans far more towards the default question of "name and pronouns?" side of things than the SUPER CREEPY side, if you're going to ask that kind of question at all.
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[personal profile] silverflight8 2012-10-27 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
The wording, yes! It's asking how to give the illusion of trustworthiness. Though they could mean the other, I suppose.
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[personal profile] mmegaera 2012-10-26 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I'm going to consider myself extremely lucky that no one's ever asked me that question, at least in a way in which I have recognized it as such.
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[personal profile] enemyofperfect 2012-10-27 06:11 am (UTC)(link)
I think I consider it an element of trustworthiness to realize that being worthy of someone's trust is not the same as having a right to it.
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[personal profile] niqaeli 2012-10-27 08:16 am (UTC)(link)
What sets me off is the implication that you can in any way force my trust -- the verb matters. F'rex "how can I get you to trust me," still sets off alarm bells for me but they are not full klaxons. But "how can I make you trust me" and any similar variations imply things that... mean I will never, ever trust you even a smidgen.
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[personal profile] niqaeli 2012-10-27 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)
The caveat there is that if I know English isn't your native language (even if you're fluent), I am willing to cut you the slack of a further chance to prove I can trust you -- ie, I will not hold your verb choice against if it might be more revealing of a non-native grasp of the language than of your underlying thought processes. But I'm still not handing you the keys to the kingdom; you gets to proves your trustworthiness the same way as anyone else.

And if I have no idea whether you're speaking a native language or a fluent non-native language, I'm going to err on the side of protecting my squishy bits because my squishy bits are more important.

But I don't trust very easily. (I am pretty free with a lot of information. It's not trust. It's that you can't hurt me with most of it any more. And most people never realise when you will tell them so much, so freely, that you're keeping anything important to yourself. Camouflage.)
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[personal profile] silverflight8 2012-10-27 08:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I think the idea is to set the "I will trust you if you do x"

and then set X as a threshold sufficiently high that if they do all the necessary things to even be able to accomplish X then you will trust them. Or make X impossible.

Assign X as a fuzzy thing, like "treat me like a human being" so that they can't just buy you an apple and "gain your trust".

(for me, anyway, trust is not consciously given, so.)
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[personal profile] firecat 2012-10-28 09:25 am (UTC)(link)
"What can I do to make you trust me?"

My answer is: "Behave in a trustworthy manner for a period of time of undefined, possibly long duration."

If someone lost my trust, then the answer is "Demonstrate that you know why you lost my trust, and then behave in a trustworthy manner for a much longer period of time."

Note, I'm willing to be friendly and in some cases sexy with people I don't trust yet. I'm just not willing to do much stuff outside my comfort zone with them.

Do I have trust issues? Well I know my caution has prevented me from connecting with some people who might have been fun to get to know better. But mostly I think it serves me well.